203. Should We Say “Leave It at the Door” in 2025? New Advice for Building Resilience with Dr Audrey Schnell

203 Audrey Schnell

[00:00:00] Have you ever been told to leave it at the door? It's a common phrase in the dance industry, and I think it's time to revisit what that means in 2025. Hi, and welcome to Passion for Dance. I'm your host, Dr. Chelsea, and my mission is to create happier, more successful dancers through positive mental skills.

And in order to build those mental skills, I think we need to talk more about emotions when you're having a really hard day. Sometimes you have to take care of yourself and rest, and sometimes you have to suck it up and get your work done. So when do you leave the bad day at the door and give a hundred percent anyway.

And when do you take a break? Today I have a guest expert with me, fellow psychologist and coach Dr. Audrey Schnell. Dr. Audrey is a trailblazer With over 40 years of experience in personal development and empowering people to reach their full potential, she joins me to talk about helping teenagers handle those big emotions, learning how to fail, handling the hard moments, and feeling negative emotions without letting it take you out of the [00:01:00] game.

Dr. Audrey shares great advice around creating an inner sense of strength, learning the value of failure, why we self-sabotage, and some solid advice to stop blaming perfectionism. Listen in and decide for yourself should we keep telling dancers to leave it at the door?

Welcome to Passion for Dance. I'm Dr. Chelsea, a former professional dancer, turn sport psychologist, and this podcast is for everyone in the dance industry who want to learn actionable strategies and new mindsets to build happier, more successful dancers. I. I know what it feels like to push through the pain, take on all the criticism, and do whatever it takes to make sure the show will go on.

But I also know that we understand more about mental health and resilience than ever before, and it's time to change the industry for the better. This podcast is for all of us to connect, learn, and share our passion for dance with the world.

Dr Chelsea: Welcome Dr. Schnell. It's so nice to have you.

Dr Audrey: Thank you so much and thank you for having me.

Dr Chelsea: Happy to. [00:02:00] So you are a fellow scientist, psychologist, and you study. You know why people change, which I love, I find interesting. Of course. And I wanna dig into that. So will you tell us a little about yourself and your work?

Dr Audrey: Sure. Uh, so I started out life as a psychotherapist working with, uh, adolescents, young adults and older adults, and then transitioned more into the research aspect, and researched, psychological things, uh, chronic diseases, you name it, across the board. And then kind of came full circle back to working with individuals and groups from a, uh, psychological perspective, not as a psychologist, but as a coach.

So the relationship is different. The goals are different, but it's still working with people and how they change and want to change.

Dr Chelsea: Yes. I love how our careers can evolve that. I think that is a natural thing to let that continue to evolve. So,[00:03:00] 

Dr Audrey: It did, it did. I just kind of fell into one thing after another, which is great in some ways, in some ways. Uh, when I was younger, I wish someone had said to me, where would you like to be in five years? Or, where would you like to be in 10 years? I, I don't know that I would've taken a different track, but there's something very empowering about deciding where you wanna go, even if it changes, and even if you're not sure.

Dr Chelsea: Right. So did you have a little bit more of a go with the flow approach when you were younger?

Dr Audrey: Yes. I didn't know that's what it was at the time,

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Dr Audrey: yes, yes. Uh, serendipity, virtuosity, whatever it was. Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: Right. But it sounds like your advice now is more as a coach. Do you try to drill into that a little bit? Let people look big picture, think about what's coming?

Dr Audrey: Yeah. And it's just, like I said, it's a great question to ask, not just when you're young. But even at this age, [00:04:00] I'm 68 or almost 68, it's like, where do I wanna be in 10 years? And it doesn't mean it's cast in zone, but it gives you a sense of, of direction of a north star of what you might need to do. And it lets us think about, well, what do I want, you know?

Dr Chelsea: no, I think that's so valuable. I'm in that space right now. I am of. I'm not gonna change my career anytime soon. But yet at the same time, having that sense of like, I'm just kind of on the train. I'm like, where's this train going? I got on this train a while ago, like, what's, what's the plan? Um, so I really appreciate that advice.

Uh, okay. I want to talk about handling emotions. It's something I've been talking about a lot with, uh, with dancers and with teachers. So, uh, you know, as dancers, it's an interesting. Dynamic compared to a lot of athletes in that our art requires the expression of emotion, but yet [00:05:00] sometimes how you're feeling and what you have to perform don't align.

Or I think dancers are just good at like, I'm not gonna think about that right now. Right? I'm gonna stuff that down, put that to the side and go perform. So handling emotions and being able to kind of recognize how you're doing.

Dr Audrey: Right. And I used to have a little mantra, especially when I was working with um, teenagers that. Uh, what something like when to support, when to confront and when to threaten to maim. . We have to be flexible and we don't, you know, when we get past a rule of I always do this or I always do that, to have, and we don't always get it right.

The wisdom to know, well, when do I apply this? Method and when do I not? So sometimes yeah, the pull up your pants, big girl pants and go out on stage and, uh, compartmentalize what's bothering us and do our job.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: Versus sometimes we need to really [00:06:00] not compartmentalize and allow ourselves to experience and feel what we're feeling.

Do we get always get it right? No, but that's the skill that we want. And when we're really young, um, you know, those teenage years where, uh, hormones are drugs, so we're basically all on drugs. Uh, it's not so easy, you know,

Dr Chelsea: Right.

Dr Audrey: there's a lot of fuel behind everything. Um.

Dr Chelsea: Well, and that makes me think, okay, if we can drill into that skill a little bit. 'cause I think that's really important. So for dancers, there's a phrase in our industry, uh, when you come into the studio, leave it at the door. Meaning whatever is going on. I don't care what happened at school today.

I don't care if you know a significant other was mean. I don't care if you had a fight with your mom in the car, like you leave it at the door and you're here to work. And I have my own thoughts about that, but I just, it's such an industry standard. So we, what are your thoughts when you hear that? To compartmentalize, leave it at the door.

Dr Audrey: I [00:07:00] think it's a good rule and I think it's 99% of the time, it's the rule we need when it comes to our, our, our job, you know? And, and. It's easy to air on the other side, which is to bring all our drama to everything and not do our job. Oh, I had a bad day. Um, I don't feel like cleaning my room, or I don't feel like going to work or whatever.

So I think that discipline and I look at it as discipline is a really powerful tool to have. And 99% of the time. Maybe even 99.9. I think it's a good rule. Sometimes we can't, if we've had a serious trauma or in this culture, when you're really sick, people will say, just go to work. Well, no, you need to take care of yourself, not make everybody else sick and stay home.

But when it comes to our emotions, [00:08:00] like I said, unless we are so a. Traumatized that we're not gonna do a good job, so that we can't leave our feelings at the door, then we need to deal with it, um, and announce it and say something, you know, like, I'm just too upset right now. Can you help me get past it so that I can do my job?

Or maybe this is a day when we need an understudy. I don't know. But the majority of the time, unless it's really violent to ourselves. Uh, I think it's a great, it's a great skill to have.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Okay. I appreciate that. I think there's, okay, I have two follow-ups. One is for kind of the teacher in the room. I think sometimes we want to just to know, so maybe if that. That sense of like, okay, it's not bad enough that you need to go home, but also just say to me like, I just had the worst fight.

I'm gonna need a minute, but I'm here.

Dr Audrey: exactly. [00:09:00] It's not about saying we're okay when we're not. It's not about denial. It's not about not sharing. I mean, I may not tell the grocery store clerk that, you know, this just happened to me, but I. I might wanna tell my teacher

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: my dance instructor what happened and what I need help with. You know, gee, like you said, just had a really bad fight with my mom.

Uh, can you help me label what I'm feeling? Especially with kids, it's so important to learn how to label what we're feeling. We're not talking about squashing it down, pretending that we don't feel it. It's more of. Labeling it, what we can name, we can tame what we can talk about, we can heal, what we can feel.

We can heal is kind of a catchphrase. So announcing how we feel. Talking about it, especially in those developmental years, I think is so important, [00:10:00] but then being helped and guided to, okay, let's see if you can, you know, perform today.

And maybe you can't, but let, let's give it a try and see how you do. And that's a skill we all need as we. Get older when we go, Ooh, I don't feel like going to the gym or going for a run today. Well, let me go out do, go around the block and see how I feel. Do I feel better? Do I feel worse?

Dr Chelsea: No, I agree. And I think that's where I struggle with that phrase. Leave it at the door because I think the connotation is stuff it down and

Dr Audrey: yeah,

Dr Chelsea: And I think that's where it's like, no, no, no. It's not, like you said, it's not ignore it. It's acknowledge and label for sure. I agree. But then also get the job done.

Like you can do both and I think that's what we're missing.

Dr Audrey: Yeah. They're not mutually exclusive. It's not like we have to pretend, but it's very powerful to be able to, um, know what we're feeling and still function. Can [00:11:00] we always do it? No, but I think it also helps us build the skills because there are really difficult times in life when we have to function and crises and things we have to deal with and, and so it's like it's resilience to some degree.

Dr Chelsea: Absolutely. When I, let me know if you are seeing this too. I feel like for teenagers now, there is a, I don't know if it's a lack of understanding or an over-exaggeration, but that sense of like, I've had a bad day, that becomes, I can't function. Or like, if I don't go home and protect myself, I'm gonna be depressed.

Like there's this huge over exaggeration. And then as the teacher or the parent. It's like, well, I don't, I'm not, last thing I wanna do is harm you, but yet this is just an off day. You're okay.

Dr Audrey: Yeah. Yeah. And that's building resilience. And um, I think Brene Brown talks about this and I think it's so important. You know, we tend to like a [00:12:00] pendulum swing. So one generation might be really permissive. The next generation gets overly disciplined. And I think, you know, I was brought up in that just on the edge of the, no, no, we're gonna go now to unconditional love and, so the pendulum kind of swung the other way, and now there's. This little bit of, oh, you did the best you could, or everything is a thumbs up and that's just not true.

And if we don't, especially for, I just had this conversation with a client, there's also what I will call the downside of being really smart.

Dr Chelsea: Hmm. Okay.

Dr Audrey: what happens is. We never fail. You know, we get through school and it's easy, and then maybe you get to college like maybe I did and all of a sudden our graduate school, oh, it's not so easy.

I got a B, I got a C or I, I totally screwed up. We have no skills to learn how to deal with [00:13:00] failure. We don't know how to take feedback that will actually help us. So I think we need to, yes, be supportive, but the truth is we don't always do the best we can. And sometimes we need a, Nope, that wasn't good enough.

Go back and do it again. So the, the coddling, you know, sometimes, again, sometimes we need it, sometimes we don't. Um, we don't always get it right, but sometimes you have to pull up your big girl pants and go get the job done.

Dr Chelsea: Oh, I'm sure. And I think teachers listening are like. Throwing their hands up like, yes, please. We need more.

Dr Audrey: Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: and it's hard. I totally, and I, I can speak as a teacher and a mom, like I get the mom side, you know, I don't want my child to be hurt or to be sad. But then if they don't ever learn, handling that emotion, so can we, can we get practical, like, as whether that's a parent or a teacher, like how do you help them?

Handle the [00:14:00] negative emotion in the moment. That is, is not a trauma, it's not a big deal, but they are really upset,

Dr Audrey: Yeah, and I, again, I think listening, getting curious, helping us label, because we don't have. Experience the perspective when we're young. I mean, I, I can still remember my first like getting dumped at 18 and thinking I was gonna die. And, uh, it's all relative at that age. You know, you,

Dr Chelsea: Uhhuh.

Dr Audrey: had the experience, you haven't learned that you're gonna live through this.

So the perspective listening, not judging, not criticizing, helping to label, put it in perspective and, and thinking in the big picture, yes, this is hard, this is what you're feeling. But, um, let's see if you can, uh. Try this 'cause you'll feel good if you can still handle this. So giving a broader perspective, a future thinking, a, holding someone [00:15:00] high without, uh, discouraging them from what they're feeling or blaming or minimizing it.

The last thing you wanna do is, and it's a delicate balance between putting it in perspective but not necessarily. Minimalizing what you're feeling? Validating but not coddling all the time.

Dr Chelsea: And I, I think that's where we're caught in these extremes, that it feels like, yeah, if I, I don't wanna minimize it 'cause you are genuinely very upset, but also let's have some real perspective of what's happening. And I think it's the parental desire to fix it.

Dr Audrey: Oh

Dr Chelsea: what I see. Like the parents are like, I just have to make this go away.

So if my child's teacher is the one who hurt their feelings, they're gonna hear it. If you know, like it's just that need to go fix.

Dr Audrey: Yeah. Yeah. And, and kids want to feel, you know, there's this myth that adolescents don't want rules or they don't want adult interference. Um, they do. We, we wanna feel [00:16:00] safe, especially when we feel out of control or like, we don't know what's going on. Um, you know, adolescents is like. Living, um, through atomic war. And so we, we need to hear, I understand what you're feeling. It feels really intense and that's okay, but it won't last.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Dr Audrey: do with kids? Distract, reassure support, um, and bring some perspective and, and ask questions. Curiosity, what would you like to see happen? What would make you feel really good about yourself?

What do you think your teacher is feeling or your sister is feeling? So lots of curiosity is always a good fallback. When in doubt, get curious.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, that's great advice because I do, I think you're, if the gut instinct is to fix, you're coming at it from your perspective of what you would want to happen in that moment, and that might not [00:17:00] be what they want to happen in that moment. And yeah,

Dr Audrey: And you can even say,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: I really wanna make you feel better. I wanna take away your pain, but I can't. So let's, let's work together

Dr Chelsea: Right.

Dr Audrey: see where we can steer this boat. I.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Okay. I love that. I appreciate that advice. 

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Dr Chelsea: You brought up resilience, and I think that's what we're getting at, right? That ability to kind of handle these hard moments and stick with it, uh, is, is that how you see resilience? How do you like conceptualize resilience when you're trying to help your clients?

Dr Audrey: allowing ourselves to feel really negative, painful emotion, and. Not be taken out of the game, at least not permanently. Um, and it's easy. Pain is easy to talk about when you're not in pain.

Dr Chelsea: Sure. Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: so, for example, um, last April, my husband and I were building our home and we had a devastating flood like destroyed [00:19:00] everything, um, all our belongings, house materials, you name it, it just was gone. And living through that and coming out on the other end taught me a lot about resilience. There were days I cried, days we couldn't go on days. I got philosophical, but. It, it created, I don't know how else to explain. This is like a new benchmark for me, what I can get through.

And that's resilience, that's learning what I can survive, what I can do in a crisis. Um,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: and it, it gives us an inner sense of strength

Dr Chelsea: Right. Well, and I think that gets back to your, yeah, it gets back to your point about if parents or teachers are always fixing it, the child has no sense that they can get through anything because somebody else has always fixed it.

Dr Audrey: And that can lead to really bad things, like expecting somebody to always fix it. There are no [00:20:00] consequences for my actions. And an unsuspected or maybe counterintuitive result is the kid learns you don't trust me.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: I can't fix it myself. You don't think enough of me to think that I'm able to do it, so it really is.

We might say clinically infantilizing your children.

Dr Chelsea: Right. Okay, so I think we're in a place culturally where that is happening more, right? We have more teens and young adults. I mean, I, as a college professor, I see it in my 20 somethings, um, that some of them are still really struggling, so. How do we help them? Now, if you're the adult, whether it's a parent or a teacher, or you're, you know, an adult in this person's life, to help them learn this resilience now.

Dr Audrey: Yeah. Um, and again, I think it's how we communicate, how we talk, what we get curious about. [00:21:00] Um, I. And, and find out what, what did they want, what the perspective is. Um, you know, it's like saying, I don't know. Well, let's say you wanna go to graduate school. Well, if you can't tolerate getting a C right now, if you can't, you know, deal with, with rejection and pain and failure, which we wanna communicate isn't really failure.

You won't ever get what you really want.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, and I think that's what we see a lot with dancers. If it's like, oh, I didn't do as well at competition this weekend, or I made a big mistake, or I didn't rank very high, you know, the judges didn't like it, and then it's a collapse. Right. Then

Dr Audrey: Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: and it's how do we, how do we pick them back up from that

Dr Audrey: Yeah. And teach them how to pick themselves back up. Like, you know, the, the, the saying is, I think it was Michael Jordan. You, you miss a hundred percent of the shots. You don't take.

Dr Chelsea: Right.

Dr Audrey: You know [00:22:00] those, think about it. Put it in perspective. Do athletes, professional athletes always, you know, does the quarterback ever get sacked?

Does, does one great team ever lose the, you know, championship? Yeah. And if you don't learn to move on, you'll never get what you want.

Dr Chelsea: So I think I agree. It's that refocus of like, what, what do you want? What is the bigger picture here? And this is, this is one day, this is one step. But what you said earlier about how adolescents, it's just natural to feel like this is the worst thing that's ever happened, or this is huge and they

Dr Audrey: Oh yeah. And part of it is still we, our brain is not fully developed. And we don't have a sense of time, so just like a 3-year-old when, when you don't give a little kid what they want, what do they say? I'll hate you forever

Dr Chelsea: Right.

Dr Audrey: for, because right now is forever for them.[00:23:00] 

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Dr Audrey: And we still have some of that even as adults, but especially as teens. Like, this is how I'm always gonna feel.

Dr Chelsea: Right. Yeah. I think that's a really important perspective. 'cause that sense of whether it's rejection or that sense of failure, like you said, trying to frame it, it's not as failure, but it feels like I'm stuck here. I'm always gonna feel like this.

Dr Audrey: In and it, you know, sometimes analogies help. It's like having the flu. You know, when you're really, really sick and you feel like I'm never gonna get better. I don't even remember what it felt like to feel better this will pass.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah.

Dr Audrey: This will pass.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, it's that perspective. . Uh, I think one area of expertise that I've seen you talk about is, uh, self-sabotage and being able to kind of handle our emotions in a way that is not going to sabotage and get in our own way. And I think dancers do that. So we talk about self-sabotage and what that. Looks like to you what you see.

Dr Audrey: It's anytime we [00:24:00] get in our own way, and it's exactly what we're talking about, you know, um, letting our emotions take us out of the game. And it comes from survival instinct. You know, we, we fear change. Even when it's change. We want, um, fear takes us out our emotions, take us out, our tantrums, take us out. Learning that there's nothing wrong with us. This is a, uh, developmental, a uh, biological survival instinct that's coming out. And we can reframe it, we can work with it. We can keep in mind what we want and just keep moving towards that. Uh. Whether it's, gee, you know, I, I, I did a lousy job in dance or maybe I, you know, cut school or maybe I cut dance class and didn't even go.

'cause I was, I felt crummy and like I was gonna do a bad job. And it's [00:25:00] okay. Let's get back on the horse. Tomorrow's another day. Um, what's in the, what's in the rear view mirror doesn't count.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Well, and I think with that. The self-sabotage around change, I think is interesting because there's, like you said, sometimes change is good and we still get negative

Dr Audrey: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: I talk, you know, I talk to a lot of, I teach mostly college seniors and graduation is not an all around positive thing.

It's very stressful, it's very overwhelming and stressful. And you know, dance is the same thing. Maybe you make your, the college team of your dreams, or the ballet company offers you a position that can still be.

Dr Audrey: Oh God. Yeah. It it. Why do you think there are so many dropouts? In fact, this happened to my stepson in high school. You know, one credit from graduation and they stopped going to class. I.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: Because that what next or the change of now I'm a [00:26:00] graduate, I'm not going to school. You know, the unknown, the fear of the unknown or sometimes even the fear of the known.

Um, it's not really fear of success or fear of failure. It's fear of, I don't know what's gonna happen, what it's gonna be like. And it's very unconscious and it's very powerful. But yeah,

Dr Chelsea: that unconscious part. Yeah, the unconscious part is hard because they may on the outside be like, no, I'm, I'm so excited to go to college, or I'm so excited for this next step. And then, like you said, the self-sabotage happens where they start staying up super late or they start, you know, not eating, not making good choices with food and drinks or

Dr Audrey: Yep.

Dr Chelsea: getting in their own way.

Yeah,

Dr Audrey: Yeah. And a lot of it is not acknowledging what we're feeling and not at that age, having a, an adult explain to us and reassure us what's going on. And even as adults, sometimes when we watch ourselves go, I'm trying to eat healthy, [00:27:00] and I just snuck a whole of Ben and Jerry's, we then we go, oh my God, what's wrong with me?

I must be crazy. I'm so confused. Why did I just do that? And yeah, we do it. We do it. And it's even worse when we don't acknowledge how we feel if we're, um, having a bad day and then we do something completely outta character because we don't, we are not acknowledging how we feel and what's going on. And so it kind of comes out sideways.

Dr Chelsea: Sure, and I guess that makes me think of it. A lot of teams where really good friends will be nasty to each other. It's, yeah, there's that root again of like, I'm feeling my own feelings, but I'm not, I'm not sitting in it. I'm not thinking about it. And so it comes out at lashing at a teammate.

Dr Audrey: One of the funny things I, will sometimes suggest to, to clients and audiences when they say, well, what's [00:28:00] the best way for me to learn, uh, more empathy or more emotional intelligence? And I will say, go watch some tv. it's not because it's a distraction, it's because we can watch. What happens to people? We can character watch. I just watched a very old episode of Law and Order

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: and it was so fascinating. They had just had this really traumatic experience of, uh, watching a, a death penalty case, or sometimes it's the, the officer who shoots somebody and, and they're in complete denial.

You know, I'm fine because there's such a. A, uh, whatever you wanna call it, a rule that we're supposed to say we're fine. And sometimes we know we're not fine and we'll still say it. And sometimes we we're in so much denial, we don't even realize we're not fine and it comes out sideways, and that's when it gets really, really [00:29:00] dangerous when we're in denial or suppressing it and then it comes out as yelling at somebody else or, uh, doing something stupid that we would never do in a normal situation, but we're just not in touch with what's happening.

Dr Chelsea: Right. So I think we've mentioned it in a couple of these scenarios now being able to label, being able to know what am I actually feeling? Uh, do you have strategies or advice that you give your clients about how to do that or how to

Dr Audrey: Uh, yeah. And it's, it's interesting, you know, there's a lot to learn from fairytales. And if you go back to, I always like to give my clients a course in, um, grims fairytales. Rumpelstiltskin is a great, . Analogy. , the, the heroine is locked in the basement, spinning straw into gold, and she's trapped until she learns. Uh, the captor's name. [00:30:00] And so she sneaks out one night to listen to his, um, song and dance where he says his name, and so she learns his name. As soon as she's learned his name, she's freed from imprisonment.

And I thought, yep, that's pretty much exactly what this is about. And we can do it in in very different ways when we're young, especially, we need somebody to help us 'cause we don't have the language yet. So it can be trial and error. Um, are you feeling this, are you feeling that telling stories, um, which we can identify?

Stories are great because they hit us at a subconscious level like Rumpelstiltskin and we can start to compare what character did you feel like? Or is this what you might be feeling as we get older? Um, there's a great list of feelings, needs and feelings, inventory from [00:31:00] the, I believe it's the Center for Nonviolent Communication.

And even just looking at all these feelings, you know, the names and going, does this fit, does this fit? Um, describing it and, and sometimes it's our job as the adult to say, gee, it sounds like you're really sad, or It sounds like you're really angry. And it's that verbalization that leads to growth language, leads to transformation and growth.

Dr Chelsea: And I think dancers have such a unique opportunity here that again, we're supposed to communicate emotion. So can you talk about like as a, as a dance teacher, as a dancer, like I like that the list of feelings or the feelings wheel or something where you can say, what is this character of this routine that I'm supposed to be?

And it's, you know, there's happy but there's 15 kinds of happy, so let's like dig into that to then better be able to label your own feelings.[00:32:00] 

Dr Audrey: Right. So, you know, and there's lots of different ways to play with this. Um, and maybe for somebody who's not really verbal or a dancer, it's like, okay, can you act out your feelings? What does that look like? What movement and dancers are in a unique position because not only are you communicating emotion through dance, movement also releases emotion.

So it's not uncommon to, uh, be like even just see people in like an exercise class. It's like, I just did this exercise. Why am I crying all of a sudden? Well, it's because you've, you've released these. Emotions. So it's a, it's kind of a, you know, a two-edged sword. But, um, what color, you know, start to get, uh, what picture, you know, draw a picture of how you feel or what movement does this feel like, or what character in a [00:33:00] movie do you think represents how you feel, and so, you know, bringing in some of the nonverbal qualities as well when we're having trouble verbalizing.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, that helps a lot. Uh, anything. Unique about, uh, perfectionism that you would wanna add to this conversation? I feel like that's just a, such a strong issue for dancers.

Dr Audrey: Oh, uh, first of all, when I tell my adult clients stop blaming perfectionism and, and, and it's, it's another one of those things that's gotten demonized. Perfectionism is not a bad thing. It, I want my heart surgeon to be perfect. It is not a bad thing. It's recognizing when it's not gonna be perfect, which most of the things we create won't be perfect.

So stop using that as an excuse for procrastination.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: And I think for [00:34:00] kids it's especially difficult because. They have a standard, someone else's standard. They're afraid. They don't know what good is, so let's go for perfect. Um, and, and so it's a little different when we're working, when I'm working with younger people who it's, it's not procrastination necessarily as, as much as it is in adults, but it's, it's fear and, and just again, you know, what would good look like? , it's never gonna be perfect. It's just what we're shooting for, progress not perfection. And, and the last thing I will say is for some people, and it kind of goes with procrastination, it's almost a commitment issue. What are you willing to commit to right now?

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: , I've been struggling to do this homework 'cause I want it to be perfect. Well, it's not [00:35:00] gonna be perfect. What, I don't know whether I should do this subject or that subject. Well, what could you commit to right now just to do, to make progress and, you know, dissertation, what do they say?

It's not good or bad until it's done.

Dr Chelsea: Right? Yeah. And I think of that. The self sabotage that comes in. 'cause I see the dancer who's like, I'm trying to learn this skill that's really hard. So if I can't do it, I don't wanna try. They're not willing to say, well, I can't do it yet. So it's gonna be messy as I try and that need to, like, if I didn't get it right the first time, then I can't do this.

Dr Audrey: Yeah. And, and I think that's, you know, at that age, especially with young adults and kids, it's understandable. We haven't learned yet that, um, it won't kill us if we fail. That we actually have to fail to get feedback and to try. And I think there's a lot of reassurance and, and again, curiosity. A, why do you [00:36:00] think it needs to be perfect?

It's not gonna be perfect. Let's just have something to work with. Let's, let's try. It won't kill you to fail. We all

Dr Chelsea: Right. Yeah. I think that's one of the beautiful things that sport teaches us is how to take the feedback and fail and, and grow from that.

Dr Audrey: And you can't name an athlete. You know who hasn't failed, who hasn't lost?

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: Who hasn't struggled, has, doesn't have a bad day or didn't get it, you know, um, musicians too. So, um, it's, it's actually, it takes that strength to go forward even when things don't work out.

Mm-hmm.

Dr Chelsea: Okay. Uh, last thing, I wanna circle back to something you said a minute ago about how, uh, dance and movement can be that release of emotion that, that that movement can be healing. And I think for many dancers, we get, I have definitely cried in rehearsals. I have cried on stage. I have had that catharsis.

Uh, so. [00:37:00] I, I assume there is, I'd love to hear, is there actually, you know, scientific evidence that that movement is healing, or what does that look like?

Dr Audrey: Uh, that's a good question. I don't actually know a lot about the science necessarily

Dr Chelsea: I don't either. That's why I was curious.

Dr Audrey: yeah. But, um, from a physiological standpoint, a uh, evolutionary standpoint, uh, movement is a release.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: I mean, you know, animals, dogs shake to, you know, get rid of anxiety or,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: um, and, and if you believe, which I do, you know, that we store feelings in places.

Um. That movement releases and, and from another standpoint, it helps us cope. I mean, going for a walk will help us reduce cortisol and, uh, get our bodies back in alignment. 

Dr Chelsea: Yes. Well, and I, I [00:38:00] don't know if you would have a perspective on this. It just makes me think that for dancers we're in this weird middle ground where the thing we love the, that movement that is so healing can also be the thing that's causing the pain. That's also the source of I'm not good enough.

That's also the source of what I'll never be able to. So it's this hard. Yeah. Like all the negative thoughts are also wrapped up in the very thing that could be healing.

Dr Audrey: Yeah. And isn't that life, you know,

Dr Chelsea: Yes. No, I appreciate that. Yeah.

Dr Audrey: you know, isn't that, you know, I, I was never angry until I got married. Um. I, it's the relationships and our relationship to our dance, our career that, um, brings us the most happiness and can bring us the most pain. And realizing, you know, well, I'll never be maybe a professional dancer.

I'll never be a professional musician. [00:39:00] And how, you know, this is a little bit of a diversion, so forgive me,

Dr Chelsea: that's

Dr Audrey: but. There's a great book by Gay Hendrix called The Big Leap,

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: and one of the things he talks about is we all have, and it's around self-sabotage, our upper limit. You know, have you ever like, uh, trained for a 5K, you're almost ready to run, and what do you know?

You sprain your ankle or you're like about to, you know. Do something really wonderful and you have a fight with your parents. Uh, this, these things that look like they're not connected, but are actually our way of limiting ourselves and just being aware of that. So, you know, you certainly hear about athletes.

You know, you're, you're primed to get injured because you're pushing your body. So just being really. Aware of, of [00:40:00] that and having the courage to continue or support yourself. Um, and you're right. You know, our, our greatest joys and our greatest pain often come from the same source.

Dr Chelsea: I think you're right that it is, it is life. It's not, it's not just dance, it's just, that was highlighting for me. But yeah, it is, it's everything. And I think about as a, as a parent, as a teacher, like my, the absolute favorite parts about being a teacher also come with what is the hardest about being a teacher, you know?

Yeah. It's all the same. Yeah.

Dr Audrey: And, and, and we learn, you know, and the future helps us frame our past, you know, if, if Thomas Edison had stopped after like the 900th light bulb. Uh, can you just imagine what his future would've been like? You know, it would've been like, I wasted all this money and my wife is so pissed at me because I spent all this time and money making light [00:41:00] bulbs and it didn't work out.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Dr Audrey: Versus you keep going, you have a success, and that totally reframes how you look at the past. So our past doesn't determine our future. Our future determines our past. The older I get, the better my childhood looks.

Dr Chelsea: that is so fair. And I was gonna ask any last words of advice. I love that, that it is, you are gonna have that reframe. For sure. So beyond that, other words of advice that you would want to share?

Dr Audrey: I think it's more important than ever to, as cliche as this sounds, it's cliche for a reason to love ourselves, to nurture ourselves, and it's a fine line between allowing ourselves to be pushed. And encouraged [00:42:00] and, I, I actually, in retrospect, wish I had been pushed more. I think I actually would have probably even been stronger, accomplished more.

And then it's a fine line to, like I said, to know when to stop pushing As a parent, do we always get it right? No, but lead with love, I

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Oh, wonderful. That is a great place to wrap this up. Uh, will you share where people can find you in your work?

Dr Audrey: Uh, absolutely. Um, my website, audrey schnell.com, Facebook, LinkedIn, and starting April 1st. I'm releasing, uh, a docuseries of interviews with experts around, um, how to have, uh, the health we want, the wealth we want, so that we can.

Life we desire. We need a strong foundation.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. I'll make sure links are available in the show

Dr Audrey: Thank you.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah. Thank you so much, Audrey, for being here and sharing your expertise with us today. [00:43:00] Of course.

Thank you for listening to Passion for Dance. You can find all episode resources at passion for dance podcast.com and be sure to follow me on Instagram for more high performance tips at Doctor Chelsea dot Otti. That's P-I-E-R-O-T-T-I. This podcast is for passionate dancers and dance educators who are ready to change our industry by creating happier, more successful dancers.

I'm Dr. Chelsea and keep sharing your passion for dance with the world.