232. A More Positive Convention Experience: Perfectionism, Confidence & Body Image with Ashley Mowrey

[00:00:00] 

Welcome to Passion for Dance. I'm Dr. Chelsea, a former professional dancer, turn sport psychologist, and this podcast is for everyone in the dance industry who want to learn actionable strategies and new mindsets to build happier, more successful dancers. I know what it feels like to push through the pain, take on all the criticism, and do whatever it takes to make sure the show will go on.

But I also know that we understand more about mental health and resilience than ever before, and it's time to change the industry for the better. This podcast is for all of us to connect, learn, and share our passion for dance with the world.

Dr Chelsea: Hi Ashley. Welcome to the show.

Ashley M.: Hi Chelsea. Thank you for having me. It's so good to see you.

Dr Chelsea: You too. I'm so happy to get to see you again and talk to you all about this mindset and mental skills in dance. Cause it is rare to find people who do what we do. So I'm so glad to have you.

Ashley M.: I know. I'm so glad to connect. Um, it's been too many years and then, yeah, I just, I'm really glad to talk about this topic with

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, me too. Will you introduce yourself a little, tell us about your [00:01:00] dance background and how that led to what you do today.

Ashley M.: Yeah, so I grew up in Dallas, Texas. I started dancing when I was three and started competing when I was eight and competed eight to 18. And I always say dance was my first love. Um, it was, I fell in love with it right away. I loved moving my body, I loved expressing myself through dance.

As a kid I had a lot of really big feelings and, uh, words didn't always feel like the best way to express myself. And so dance and movement and storytelling through movement always felt like the safest, most accessible way for me to express myself. So that was the beginning. And then preteen, teenage years, I started to really struggle with my mindset.

I didn't have the, that language at the time. This was a long time ago. We were not talking about mindset or mental health as you know, um, in dance, like when we were growing up. And so I didn't know what it was. I just thought it was me. I thought, you [00:02:00] know, I was getting those messages that like, suck it up.

You're not tough enough , you know, I just, I really struggled with a lot of self-criticism, a lot of comparison, a lot of body image stuff, and I thought it was just me. And so by the time I got to be 18, I was really burnt out. Um, I was really just so exhausted mentally and physically, and I.

I always thought I was gonna go to college for dance. I always thought I was gonna try to dance professionally. By 18, I had fallen out of love with it, and so I decided to take a step back and went to college for something else. Um, I started going to college and getting my degree in psychology, and about two years into school realized how much I missed dance and how much I missed that form of expression.

So I found a local studio where I was going to school and I started teaching dance thinking I was just gonna teach part-time while I was in college. Finishing my degree ended up realizing how much I love [00:03:00] teaching and loved being with dancers. And I always gravitated more towards the dancer's mind and mental wellbeing like that was always really important to me and also really interesting to me.

And so I ended up teaching for 10 years. During that time, I was also the competition team's director, and it was during those 10 years that I realized I wasn't alone in what I was struggling with and that the dance world is really hard on our mindsets and you know, the culture in a lot of studios and companies is really tough on our mental health.

And so about eight years ago I made the switch. I became a certified life mindset and positive psychology coach and. Started coaching dancers to help with their mindset. Um, and so for the past eight years I've been working with one-on-one clients doing workshops, and then I also work for Embody Dance Conference where I get to bring mindset skills to the convention space.

Dr Chelsea: I resonate so much with [00:04:00] everything you just said in that, especially when you're younger thinking it's just you. And I think there's so many dancers that do that. They're like, oh, this horrible story in my head is something I just need to deal with, or something is wrong with me, that I can't just be confident the way they tell me to, or that I shouldn't just be able to shut it off.

And I, same for me, led me to a lot of this like epiphany of, oh. Everybody does this in some way, shape, or form. Like how can we make this better? And I also connect with that teaching piece. There is something special to that. So I'm so glad that you've brought the mindset piece into being a teacher and into convention, which I definitely wanna touch on too.

'cause that's a different space to be able to bring that, uh, into a convention. So let's talk about mindset. I. Again, don't often get to talk to other people who get to work in this similar space. So what do you see as the most challenging mindset issue that keeps coming up with your clients and the dancers you see?

Yeah.[00:05:00] 

Ashley M.: Yeah, I would say the most common areas I work on with dancers is perfectionism. Lots of perfectionism. So with that, you know, the desire to be perfect, but also fear of mistakes and fear of failure, and fear of setbacks. Um, with that also comes a lot of negative self-talk, a lot of inner critic. Stuff comes up.

So dancers being really critical of themselves and not very compassionate towards themselves, especially in moments of struggle. And, um, I think comparison is really big. I work mostly with competitive dancers and that comparison that comes up is just really loud and really strong.

Dr Chelsea: I agree. I think that perfectionism, fear of failure, all of that is very strong. So let's talk perfectionism.

Ashley M.: Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: Do you feel like that is more. Some dancers just do it like it's their personality. Is it, uh, like environment based, like messages from [00:06:00] parents and teachers and studios or like where it's coming from, how young you're seeing it?

Anything about like the roots of it?

Ashley M.: Yeah, I'm always so curious about the roots of it anytime I work with a client one-on-one, because it can be so varying. Um, and so that's one thing that we really work on identifying is like, when did you start believing the story of I must be perfect and everything I do must be perfect.

And what's, what are you scared of is gonna happen if you're not perfect? You know, so we really start there. I would say it's a combination of a lot of things. I, you know, some kiddos are just. They are more competitive, they are more driven. They are going to lean towards that perfectionism. And then I also see a lot of environmental factors, studio culture, competition, culture, parents, you know, and so I think it's definitely a combination.

And what I love is just helping dancers. You know, unravel that and see, what's underneath that? What is the [00:07:00] fear there that they are scared of, and then bringing in some self-compassion and some other tools to help them, you know, really honor. I look at it as like honoring their humanity and honoring , their innate self-worth and their ability to take up space.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely. You're right. The origins are so varying, but yet the tools can be helpful, uh, kind of whether it's a personality trait and this is a kid that's just gonna be like that, or whether it's something they learned along the way, or like you said, probably both. I know we don't wanna talk about like a specific person, but let's.

Keep it broad and, but kind of the things that you tend to see if a hypothetical dancer were to come to you and is. To me, I usually see a difference between like the symptom that brings them there and then realizing it's perfection, right? Like usually it's that sense of like, I'm dancing fine in the studio and then I get on stage and I freak out and panic, or I can never do [00:08:00] it when it matters.

So do you see that too, that what they come to you for and then you're like, this is actually perfectionism and self-talk.

Ashley M.: Yes. Always. Yes, always. Um, and so, and I start out, so every new coaching client that I start with, I start with a 20 minute free. Phone chat with the parent or guardian just to hear like their perspective and 'cause the, if they're a minor, most of them are minors. Um, and so to hear their perspective, and it's usually in that phone call, right?

I'm hearing all the symptoms. I'm hearing how the perfectionism has manifested into their behaviors and into their reactions. And so yes, a lot of times that is performance anxiety, freezing on stage, getting super nervous, backstage, repetitive. Worst case scenarios. Lots of fear backstage. Um, or a lot of times too with perfectionism, I see like a really strong attachment with external validation.

And so their self-worth is just completely intertwined [00:09:00] in that award and that scholarship and that praise from their teachers. And underneath that is this. Well, I have to be perfect. In order to be good enough and in order to be worthy. Um, and so yeah, I definitely, yes, I always see these little, I hear it from the parent at first, and then in the first few sessions I, you know, I start to think, okay, yep, there, there's the perfection.

Um, and this is, you know, where we can go with that.

Dr Chelsea: And it's interesting how, in my experience, when I start talking to them about their hearing their symptoms and what they want to stop, right? Like I want to just be able to dance freely on stage. I don't wanna be so stressed about it or the one, sometimes it's very physical and like parents are concerned, like a dancer that will actually like throw up, right?

Right. Before or after. And it's very scary and you know, they just want that to stop and yeah, they don't. They don't know the [00:10:00] perfectionism is under it, and it's, it's this very interesting piece. And some dancers , it'll click right away and they'll be like, oh yeah, every time I go to dance, I want to make sure my teacher is proud or I know I want to get, this next award or I have to do better than last time.

And they can start to recognize the thoughts. And then some dancers, it's. It's interesting to me 'cause there's such a disconnect and I think that's just how our minds work, right? Where sometimes they like, I just need this behavior to stop without any recognition that like, there's the thoughts behind it and the emotions that are just, like you said, manifesting as that, that challenge on stage, right?

Ashley M.: yes, yes, totally. No, I, I see that a lot and that's one reason why one of the foundational. Skills that I really work on with dancers at the beginning of the coaching process is building their self-awareness. So really helping them be able to like identify their [00:11:00] thoughts, how that affects their feelings and behaviors, and really seeing the connection between all of that and building that, you know, oh, when I.

Go to class and want to impress my teacher, what's under that and how is that affecting my behaviors? And so definitely. And then also helping the parents see that too. Um, 'cause I, you know, throughout the coaching process, I have conversations with the parent about their progress and how it's going and what we're working on.

And so that's definitely something that we talk about is. Building that self-awareness and then that awareness for the parent of the parent being able to recognize that too. So when something that I work on a lot with parents is like the emotional dysregulation at during competition weekends. And that it's, it's really, there's, there's something under it.

It's not just their kids snapping at them. Um, and you know, like as moms ourselves, like I have to remember that. Um, you know, but I love working with parents and talking to them and helping them [00:12:00] build that awareness of like, oh, okay, what's going on underneath when they react like that?

And then how can we build a plan to have more space for emotional regulation throughout the competition weekend.

Dr Chelsea: Oh, that's such a good point. And I yes, know it in my practice, and yet as a mom, when it's your own daughter, it can be so challenging. It's hard. So, okay, let's talk about awareness, because I agree. I think that is the first mental skill, right? When I think about where we're gonna start, whatever your symptom is, whatever the thing is that you want to change, usually awareness is first.

And knowing, like you said, what emotion am I actually feeling? What thought is really underneath this, uh, for the dancer and the parent, I think that's fantastic to make sure the parent is also trying to be aware and not just like, well just stop doing it. It's like, well that doesn't work, right. We can't

Ashley M.: Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: doing that.

So, uh, what do you ask dancers to get to that awareness? Do you have like exercises or practices that they try to build that? Are you willing to share any of [00:13:00] that? Kind of dig

Ashley M.: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So I would say, you know, if it's a one-on-one client, and then I also have done this at Embody. In a convention space. And so, you know, the prompt is usually something along the lines of, I, I always start not necessarily in coaching one-on-one 'cause it's about the client and not me, but in the embody space, I want them to also, like, I wanna normalize that I work on these things too.

And so I'll usually start with some type of story about how I reacted to something as a dancer or, you know, something happened and I had this big emotional response and so. You know, helping them see that it's normal. And then I love using self-reflection and journaling as a way for them to explore these things.

And so what I'll typically do, whether it's a one-on-one client or in a group, is I will have them think of a situation where they had an emotional response that they wish they could change, that they wish they would've acted different. [00:14:00] And you know, I always tell them, on the trauma scale. Like pick something that's not like capital T trauma. Like let's pick something that's like a five or below, um, that like is uncomfortable and you didn't like it, but it wasn't like big trauma in your life because I'm not, that's out of my scope. Um, so let's stay, within that five or below.

And then from there, okay, write about that experience, then write about the facts of that experience. What are the facts in that situation? Then what thoughts were you having during it? Can you remember what you were telling yourself in your head? Um, what, what feelings were you having? Helping them work on feeling identification too.

During the feeling identification process I also really work on identifying to the feeling in their bodies. So not just being able to name like I was feeling worried, I was feeling anxious, I was feeling sad, but also what did that feel like in their bodies? Our bodies hold so much information and can tell us. So much information, and often it's our [00:15:00] bodies who start talking first, right?

So we get that pit in our stomach or we get that jittery feeling, or our heart starts racing. And so getting them to really be able to understand and identify how that feels in their body. Um, and then from there, how that affected their behaviors. Okay. What did they do in response to that? And then what do they wish they could have done differently?

And then we go through different strategies. And this is a process, you know, sometimes some kids already know some strategies to help them. Emotionally regulate, some don't. And so, that's a process. It's very collaborative, so you know, if they have stuff that they've worked on or that they know, we work on that together.

If they need ideas, if they need some tools, then I bring those in. And so that's, you know, that's really the, the first few steps of that.

Dr Chelsea: that's a great process. It feels almost like choreography, like if you're working on a solo and it's like, I know what you're good at and I also can tell where I can challenge you and [00:16:00] let's use the tools you have, but also build on that and making them feel comfortable to try things. Same, I've had clients right away that are like, I've tried deep breathing.

It doesn't work.

Ashley M.: Same. Yeah.

Dr Chelsea: So let's talk about something else. And I'm not just gonna throw another breathing strategy at you. And often there's a reason it didn't work. And if we get to doing it correctly, it works. But, uh, it's, yeah, like you said, listening to them, hearing what's working for them, and absolutely identifying it in the body because it does come first.

And I feel the same way about talking about stress. Usually there's a physical symptom of stress first, and if you become more aware of it, you can catch the stress reaction sooner. And just as one example, same thing with having that like anxiety reaction before you're in panic mode and about to go on stage.

Like the sooner you notice it, the sooner you can try these strategies and then they work better if you can catch it before you're in full. Fight or flight, like what's that first piece? So I love those reflection questions. I think it's really powerful [00:17:00] and I do wanna touch on age when we talk about this because I am similar.

I use a lot of self-reflection and journaling and that metacognitive with the dancers I talk to that tend to be middle school at the youngest. And as you know, like that's, there's a brain science reason behind that, right? We can't do the metacognition, uh, much before about 12. And so. It's really for the middle school and older dancers who are capable of using their brains in that way.

They don't necessarily know how. And that's where these strategies work. Uh, do you work with younger dancers or have ideas on helping the ones who aren't yet in that self-reflective place?

Ashley M.: Mm-hmm. I do. So, um, my clients, I typically will. See as young as 10, that's not the norm. Most, I would say like the majority of my clients are always like 12 and up. And it's a little bit less of the self-reflection and um, [00:18:00] more about learning like. How to identify just like basic, how to identify thoughts, how to identify feelings, how to identify behaviors, what the difference between them are and more.

It's a little bit more like outside of themselves and so we use a lot of stories and examples for that age and then an embody. I do work with the minis as well. Um, and so that has been. So fun to be like, okay, what can I do with the minis? They, we don't do any writing, right? Um, and so with the Minis, I do a lot of games and I do a lot of like introduction to different concepts.

And so, um, a lot of partner, they love a partner chat, right? So get a partner and we're gonna chat about this. Um, or we do a feelings identification game of like, I have all these. Feelings and we're gonna pick a card that says that feeling and you're going to share about a time you had that feeling, you know?

And just trying to start to help them recognize, build that awareness, and also have the language [00:19:00] to use in those moments.

Dr Chelsea: Absolutely. Great point. So even though we can't. Write about it or have the reflection tools necessarily, we can absolutely start identifying at a young age. And you can do that emotional awareness at a young age. And you've seen those like the little squishy with the different facial expressions and like you can do those things in preschool.

And being able to just have those early identification. I love the storytelling. You're right. Most of them want to share. And that goes back to your earlier point of normalizing it, of like when is a time that you have felt anxious? When is a time that you have felt confident? When is a time you have felt nervous?

And being able to share, like everybody has that a little bit. And I think that also leads into some of the, uh. The body image issues that I know you have worked with before. And I think there's a, an important piece to that awareness and normalization. And unfortunately it happens so young that dancers start to have those thoughts of, I [00:20:00] don't look good in this costume, or I am, I don't wanna wear the ballet leotard 'cause it makes me uncomfortable.

Uh, and some of that normalization of like, it's there, but also that doesn't have to be. Your lived experience, so you don't have to sit in that. So can we pivot to the body image stuff and share a little about what you see with your clients and how you're able to support them.

Ashley M.: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So with the body image, what I see is just a lot of self-critical thought.

Dr Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Ashley M.: And, and also like, you know, I see some body dysmorphia, not that I, that's out of my scope. And so I will refer them out to a psychologist if it is something that is like hindering their progress or hindering their life in any way.

But, um, as far as the negative body image. Yeah, I don't look good in this. I don't feel good in this. I don't like how my body looks when I do this. They look like that. I look like this. You know, thoughts like that come up a lot. And so what I really, I think [00:21:00] number one, normalizing it, um, with dancers and then also talking, I talk a lot about like the environmental factors of that.

You know, can really amplify negative body image. We're wearing very little clothing and being raised in front of mirrors, like that's strange and going to impact us. And so, you know, helping them like identify what environmental factors are, , making it worse. And so often into that social media.

So like, do you need to go through a social media, pause and, or do you need to look at who you're following? You know, stuff like that. And then from there, just really helping them reframe those negative self-talk and also really working on that body neutralization.

And so, um, working on like, you don't have to love your body. You don't have to, I'm not asking these dancers to switch from, like, I hate how I look to, I love how I look and I'm so beautiful. Right? We're not going to switch it into [00:22:00] necessarily like positive self-talk. I think that that can often. Just backfire and we're not gonna believe it.

Um, and so looking for more neutrality. So how can I be more neutral about my body and know that it is not where my worth comes from? Know that my appearance and my size and my shape and my weight are not what makes me valuable as a human as and as a dancer. And so, you know, I have different ways and different exercises to do that.

Yeah, just really working to neutralize those thoughts and bring more awareness and giving them some tools for when those thoughts come up.

Dr Chelsea: Two pieces. The, the neutralization I, I think is really powerful and I bet some people are surprised you say that. And I agree and I'm with you because I think self-talk in general, whether it's about body image or whether it's about your technique or whatever it is, the negative self-talk.

Is often very challenging to just be positive. And we know that it doesn't always work. And the dancers are like, no, I'm a great turner. [00:23:00] And then their next thought is, no, I'm not. I suck at this. It's like they don't believe themselves. And so being positive isn't always helpful. And instead on the technique side, I always say being instructional.

Like, okay, then your self-talk is, use my back. Or strong spot left side, like whatever helps in that moment. But in the body image. Space. I think the neutral self-talk is the same idea and so interesting to just detach the self-worth. 'cause that's usually, like you're saying, where the negativity is coming from is that I'm not good enough or I will never, you know, make it or be seen as that kind of dancer and instead being able to detach and that it's not actively harming you in your space.

So I, I appreciate that neutral approach.

And then the second piece when you started talking about the environment. I think that's also really powerful to notice what are your environmental triggers that you can't control.

Like I have to wear this and I have to be in front of this mirror and I remember when I was a senior, a junior, [00:24:00] senior dancer, we had to wear white Leos, which was terrible and I don't know who chose, you know, all these young girls who were already menstruating to be in a white Leo.

It was terrible. But some of that you don't have control over. But then there are things like you brought up social media. Where is that a trigger that is in your control? And I can definitely see it in especially the younger dancers when they start talking negatively about themselves. I'm like, you've been watching more YouTube or like you have been on Instagram all day.

And it's like, okay, notice where that's coming from and does that make me feel bad about myself and I can control where that information is coming from. Yeah. So separating that.

Ashley M.: yes. Love, love. And that is a coaching skill that I work so much with on dancers is the what's in my control, what's outta my control. Um, and it's, so I find that it gives them so much power. know, and they, you know, I think a lot of young dancers feel powerless and they feel like they don't have control over much.

[00:25:00] And so to help them identify whether it's body image or in the studio or at competition, what they do have control over, and then what they don't, and then how they can manage, what is within their control, uh, can be really empower.

Dr Chelsea: Absolutely. It's such a good point about the neutrality piece with the stuff that's not in your control, because what you can work on is how you react to that environment or how you set yourself up for success. So I think that is such good advice.

So you brought up your work with Embody Dance Conference and I want to highlight that and talk about how it's different because it is not a typical convention kind of experience and I love what they're doing, so. Let's talk about mindset at convention, broadly speaking, and you, I obviously can bring in your specific work at Embody because conventions are long weekends, they're often very challenging for dancers, mentally and physically. Uh, I certainly remember them. Did you participate in conventions

Ashley M.: Oh yeah.

Dr Chelsea: Oh yeah. It's, they're hard, [00:26:00] they're very

Ashley M.: they're hard. They're very long weekends

Dr Chelsea: and, and like we were saying.

Ashley M.: overstimulating.

Dr Chelsea: Very overstimulating and like you were saying at the beginning, I just didn't know any better. I'm like, you just deal like, right. So now we know better. So what is different about conventions today? Both maybe what Embody is doing, but also just what you're seeing in conventions and how we can still have this intense master training and yet take better care of ourselves.

Ashley M.: Yeah, absolutely. So what I'm seeing, you know, and it's been a minute since I have been to other conventions other than embody. So, you know, a lot of this is, I'm hearing from clients and stuff, but I do know most convention spaces can be really intense. Um, most are pretty high stakes. They feel really high stakes in the moment.

There is a lot of talk and a lot of emphasis on winning the room and, you know, um, who's gonna win the room that weekend? Meaning who's gonna get the biggest scholarship or who's gonna get the [00:27:00] biggest award? And, you know, there's a lot of emphasis on that. It feels, I hear from dancers all the time that it feels like they're constantly being judged by their peers, by the faculty, you know, just a lot of scrutiny.

Um, and then on top of that, like the lack of sleep, the long hours, the toll that it takes on their body. The often, like they're not getting proper nutrition or hydration on these weekends. Like there's limited options. Um, and then they also don't have a lot of time to eat during these weekends. So, you know, I think a lot of these things just set them up to be really chaotic weekends.

At Embody, we really are trying. To do something different. We're really trying to teach to the whole human instead of just the dancer, and really, you know, honor and recognize and celebrate each dancer's humanity as they come in. And so the way that that looks different a few things that we do.

Number one is during the convention schedule, we do have, so I teach the [00:28:00] mindset seminars. I have every age group at least once. And then we also have, Bree Meyers is our, one of our faculty members, and she is an amazing hip hop teacher and choreographer, and she's also a licensed therapist. And so she teaches a mental health for dancers seminar.

And then we have Allison Stoner who comes in and does somatic movement. And so really giving the dancers a chance to move without the pressure of getting it right or getting it perfect and just more self-expression through movement. And so, you know, we have those classes in the schedule.

I also teach during the weekend the, I have seminars for parents and teachers and so, you know, really trying to build the whole community in every city that we go to. Not just the dancers, but we also want to, you know, reach the parents and the teachers as well. And then we do as a faculty, you know, we really try to put less emphasis on awards. And so a couple ways that we do that is during our [00:29:00] competition, our adjudication awards , have different names than like high gold, high silver, they're different affirmations. And so number one, it's nice because it's an affirmation. It's like, this is your time, or I am enough, you know?

And so, and also we do that because. We kind of like it that you don't exactly know where it is in the moment, right? Like you can go back to the studio and look at the actual score and hear the critiques and hear the feedback. Um, but in that moment, you're not going to get so hung up on, I got platinum, they got high platinum, you know?

Um, and we also give the awards out. As soon as the scores are locked in, um, backstage, there's a table, and one person from that dance will go and get their score and their pins right then. And that also, you know, helps because they're not getting their adjudication announced on stage in front of their peers.

Um, which I think can be [00:30:00] helpful , for the dancers. And also they know there's a shorter amount of wait time. , They know pretty quickly like what the score was, and so they don't have as much anticipation anxiety.

Um, and then another thing that we do, when Olivia Zimmerman, our founder and director was creating embody, one thing that she really wanted was for dancers to feel more supported and, um, a more personalized approach for each dancer. And so. Early on in, Embody days, we were talking, her and I, and she was like, okay, how can we do this? And we were thinking about especially soloists, you know, soloists can get so in their heads, they can get off stage and just have a complete meltdown.

Um, if something didn't go right, you know, how can we support them? How can we make it feel more personable? And so we do something called artist to artist. And so. It's either me or Brie. And this year I think we're training a few other of our ambassadors to do it as well. But for [00:31:00] every single solo I'm sitting there with my laptop at the judge's table, and I have a, Gmail template that has three prompts that gives them positive feedback. And so it's, um, my favorite thing about your dance was I can tell you've worked really hard on and words I wanna leave you with. And then they get that email. And so that has, I've heard it's really helpful that they can have something.

Encouraging right after to see and to reflect on. Um, and then it's just really fun for us too because I think so much of teaching, you're focused on corrections and you're focused on, you know, what needs to be fixed. And so it's been really freeing and really fun for me as a teacher to really hype these dancers up and to look at their strengths and look at what is going right and help them focus on those things too, you know, before they get the other feedback.

Dr Chelsea: It is such a unique approach and [00:32:00] there's a time and place for the more intense competition, but I love that there is also this space and for each dancer, like what your goals are, where you are in your own journey, and being able to even do both and have different experiences and have a chance to have something that is more affirming of the work you're doing.

And I like your different ways of making it individual and pulling the comparison away because. Competition is always gonna have that comparison piece. But to be able to still perform, get actual scores, get judge feedback, but yet not have the in the moment comparison. 'cause what I see is so many dancers that are loving the whole thing and then you have the big adjudication at the end and now the whole thing's ruined.

And it's like, how do we pivot that so that you can not end the day in a way that feels like it ruins the whole experience. Some of that, again, it's messaging from parents and teachers, but even when teachers are trying to say like, I don't care where you land, like I'm really proud of what you did [00:33:00] on stage, dancers are still gonna have their own dialogue and their own comparison, and it's just the age.

So being able to remove that sounds really special.

Ashley M.: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's been really fun. And a few years before Embody contacted me. I, you know, growing up as a Comp convention kid, and then working as the director of a competition team for so many years, I had the thought of like, I, I wonder if this could work in a convention.

Like if, like, I think it's needed and those weekends are so intense, I wonder if it could work. And so I, you know, that was already in the back of my brain. And then when I connected with Embody and it. It can work. It does work. You know, and I think it, um, takes the right environment and, I think we work really hard to try to make that environment safer and more inclusive so that dancers can be vulnerable and they can explore these things.

Um, but it's been really cool to see and to be able to teach these [00:34:00] skills through, you know, all the different seminars in all the different cities.

Dr Chelsea: Oh, that sounds so wonderful. I want to pivot to one last question before we wrap up. I have been focused a lot lately on how dance lessons are life lessons, the things that we learn in dance are carried much past our training and our time on stage. So I would love to hear a little about what you've learned from your time as a dancer that sticks with you today.

So will you finish the sentence because of dance?

Ashley M.: Hmm.

Because of dance, I can. Be my most authentic self. I think it's really taught me to lean into my authenticity and I think it's really taught me, you know, through all the ups and downs, it, it has taught me to come back to myself and to come back into my body and that , I can be [00:35:00] myself and I can be authentically me and use my movement to express myself in a way that feels really good to me and tells my story.

Dr Chelsea: That is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Will you please let us know where people can learn more about you and your work and Embody dance conference?

Ashley M.: Yes, of course. So my website is ashley mowrey. Mowrey is M-O-W-R-E-Y, and then my Instagram is at Ashley dot mowrey dot mindset. And then Embody is embody dance conference.com and their Instagram is at Embody Dance Conference.

Dr Chelsea: Yeah, I'll make sure everything is linked. Of course. Thank you so much for your time today, Ashley. It's so special to get to talk to somebody who is in the same space and doing such great work for our dancers. Thank you for being here.

Ashley M.: yes. Thank you Chelsea, for having me. This was great.

Thank you for listening to Passion for Dance. You can find all episode resources at passion for dance podcast.com and be sure to follow me on Instagram for more high [00:36:00] performance tips at Doctor Chelsea dot Otti. That's P-I-E-R-O-T-T-I. This podcast is for passionate dancers and dance educators who are ready to change our industry by creating happier, more successful dancers.

I'm Dr. Chelsea and keep sharing your passion for dance with the world.